BULLS Haps 16/17

Discussion in 'Sports Haps' started by IWMB, Oct 15, 2016.

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  1. gbergman
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    gbergman Legendary Drunken Youth

    I have to believe that this GM group would have traded Jordan back in 89 for a pack of skittle, a beef from johnnys and a second round pick.
  2. whitesox901
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    whitesox901 Banjo and Kazui's great adventure

    :waiting: for Leslie to come tell us his hot take about the trade.
  3. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    They are shockingly incompetent. I don't understand how anyone can support this team anymore. There's not a single blue-chip asset on this roster now. Just a bunch of "lottery picks" that stretch to qualify for that title.
  4. zmz
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    zmz By the Banks of the River Chicago

    Zach Lavine was having a pretty good year and is only 22 but there's the whole ACL thing...
  5. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    An RFA after next season too...
  6. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    I imagine if Lavine has a good year they will resign him
  7. Prope
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    Prope RIP soxwon

    Ya know, Butler was part of the two most embarrassing playoff losses (on home court) that I can remember. For all the hard work he put in to make himself into the player he is, that loss in '15 to Cleveland and '17 to Boston are really what I'm going to remember.
    y2chae likes this.
  8. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    Somebody is gonna max him if he has a good year.
  9. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Zach Lowe had a good recap of the trade:

    Lavine is a super athlete who can hit 3's and create his own shot, but an awful defender. Kris Dunn is a great defender but he struggled at everything else his rookie year (his draft profile said his offensive game would need to develop) and is old (he was a 4 year college player).

    The Bulls did try to get a better offer but there wasn't any. While Butler's contract was good value, teams were wary of him bolting after 2 years (you can only offer a super max if you had the player within the first 4 years of his career) with the rumors that he wants to play in LA. Boston wouldn't give up any of their high picks and the thought is perhaps free agents this year wouldn't want to come to Boston if they had 2 ball dominant players in Butler and Thomas.

    And this is a good conclusion:

    Shows are bad GarPax are at negotiating. Thibs really wanted Butler. Just demand the 16th pick is staying. And yes, insist on the ability to swap a draft pick or two in the year 2020 or something. He also says ironically the Wolves are now a better version of last years Bulls- they need shooting badly.
  10. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Well, they were picking for the Warriors by that point.

    It's the overall philosophically, I understand finding the next Draymond is very rare but the 2nd round pick was high enough that you could take a chance on someone and hope they develop, which is exactly what a rebuilding team needs.

    I just don't get why $3.5 million was so valuable to them. $3.5 million to a NBA team these days is like what $10 is to me or you.
  11. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    As Lowe notes that the Bulls probably could've gotten a better deal from the Celtics during the 2016 trade deadline, most importantly the Nets 2017 pick.

    Could've had Fultz by now!
  12. zmz
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    zmz By the Banks of the River Chicago

    Exactly. Just like the McDermott trade. I don't care that they traded him since he was a shitty player. It's the fact they traded 2 first rounders to draft him, then 2 years later trade him for absolute garbage (along with another asset in TAJ). Just miserable roster management
  13. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    And traded a 2nd round pick to OKC. Take our assets for Cam Payne!!!
  14. BeviBall
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    BeviBall No wallet. No crack. Not me.

    Good thing we still have Zipser, whoever the fuck he is.
  15. Ziggy
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    Ziggy I Can Get Laid in Germany

    http://www.soxhaps.com/threads/thugs-n-tats-the-nba-thread.16649/page-12
    You liked the 1st McDermott trade at the time. :crappin:
  16. whitesox901
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    whitesox901 Banjo and Kazui's great adventure

  17. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

  18. zmz
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    zmz By the Banks of the River Chicago

  19. Cheeses
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    Cheeses Do not be afraid to crush the cucks with your mind Cupcake Mod

  20. whitesox901
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    whitesox901 Banjo and Kazui's great adventure

  21. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    After seeing what the Thunder gave up for Paul George, the Butler trade doesn't look that bad for the Bulls at all.

    Of course it's GarPax so they'll still fuck up the rebuild.
    chops likes this.
  22. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    The difference is that George announced his intentions to leave, and kneecapped the Pacers leverage.

    The Bulls did not need to trade Butler.
  23. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Butler wasn't resigning with the Bulls after 2 years, unless he got the super max (even then it's a question) even if he wasn't public about it pretty much everyone knew he wanted to play in LA just like George.

    Minnesota is banking on the hope that the Thibs factor convinces Butler to stay.
  24. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    It's clear after the fact, the Bulls did take the best deal on the table.

    Yes, they should've flipped him at the 2016 trade deadline when the Celtics were willing to give up the Nets pick, GarPax are morons for not starting the rebuild then. All I'm saying is the trade that actually happened, looks like it was pretty fair market value.
  25. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    Disagree entirely.
  26. Prope
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    Prope RIP soxwon

    Well argued.
  27. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    There's no evidence Jimmy would have left the Bulls. In fact, he wanted to stay to get the max money. By trading him, the Bulls screwed Jimmy out of a huge sum of money.

    Even if the decision had been made to deal him, there is no way this was his market value. The Bulls FO are simply terrible negotiators, and put themselves in a position where they felt that they had to make a deal. This is how you lose trades. There was absolutely no reason to trade Jimmy, and no pressing need to trade him. It was simply invented out of thin air by GarPax.

    If you really do want to tear down and rebuild, you must get picks. The Bulls could not even do that. Instead they managed a pick swap. Jimmy Butler, was worth far more than a pick swap.

    This trade is a complete shambles, and GarPax should already be fired.
  28. Prope
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    Prope RIP soxwon

    Are you really upset with GarPax because now they don't have to (possibly) pay Jimmy the supermax? You're saying the Bulls are bad negotiators because they screwed Jimmy out of a huge sum of money?
  29. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    The Bulls FO are bad negotiators because history demonstrates this to be true.

    A bevy of draft picks for McDermott. Shit trade.
    Snell for MCW. Shit trade.
    Taj and McDermott to OKC for Cameron Payne. Shit trade.
    Butler trade. Epically shitty.

    The only trade they did reasonably well on was the Derrick Rose trade.

    Back to the Butler trade, there was absolutely no need to do the trade on draft night. It's not as if they had scouted Lauri Markkanen or anything. They could have waited to do a stronger deal after the draft, maybe actually get some future draft picks. Maybe not literally sell their draft picks to pay Rajon Rondo to go away.

    I also don't believe they needed to trade Butler at all. He was a dynamic two-way player they could have built around. Of course, GarPax don't have the creativity, or ability for that matter, to do the job, so all options open to them would only result in failure. Gar Forman is hated throughout the league, and Paxson is a fucking crank who doesn't even want to talk to agents. What a dynamic FO team!

    And in case you are wondering, yes, I would have given Jimmy the supermax.
  30. Prope
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    Prope RIP soxwon

    I'm sorry, but have there been a series of posts in this thread, or any Bulls-related thread, where people are singing the praises of GarPax? Nobody is suggesting they are some dynamic FO. Nobody is suggesting that they should keep their jobs. I can only speak for myself, but a 28 year old Jimmy Butler, with the amount of mileage he's put on his legs, isn't worth the supermax at the age of 30. Nor do I think paying him that supermax at the age of 30 does anything to help the Bulls win a title anytime soon.
  31. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    The Bulls aren't winning a title until Reinsdorf dies and these idiots running the team are fired.

    So who gives a shit how much Jimmy makes? At least he was entertaining to watch. Kris Dunn, tho...

    :gun2:
  32. Prope
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    Prope RIP soxwon

    BTW, Snell got 46m from the Bucks, and MCW, the worst ROY in recent memory, is no longer on the team. I'd say that's a win for the FO.
  33. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Uh, Jimmy can't get the super max but with Bird rights Minnesota can still offer him the most and he'll still get paid a lot. Also... who cares? It's a business.

    I don't think you can win a title with Jimmy Butler as your best player. Maybe a team that makes a conference finals if things break right. A lot of this is GarPax's own doing. Their shitty roster management led them to this mess.

    But Jimmy isn't perfect either. He undermined the coaches and his teammates. No the Bulls didn't have to trade him but clearly 17-18 would've been another 7 or 8 seed and the same old treading water with Butler as the best player. Then it's either a lame duck year in 18-19 with him in his contract season and if the Bulls 'win' they sign him to 35 percent of the cap when he turns 30 in the first season.

    Butler is a top 15 player who can absolutely be a #2 on a title winning team. It just wasn't going to happen here. A lot of it is on GarPax but the trade they made, especially after what the Pacers got for George (Oladipo on an expensive deal and no lottery picks), I'm okay with it.

    Larger problem is that GarPax shouldn't be around to oversee this rebuild.
  34. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Yeah Snell is a fine enough role player but $46 million over 4 years for a guy who averaged 8.5 points a game... I'm good.
  35. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    How is that a win for the FO? It's a damning rebuke of that trade.
  36. Prope
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    Prope RIP soxwon

    Is Tony Snell worth $46,000,000 over 4 years? MCW is no longer around to create a log jam in your back court. There are a lot of reasons to bag on GarPax, but I don't see how them not over paying for Tony Snell, or them not keeping the walking rectum that is MCW is one of them.
    chops likes this.
  37. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    The prices for all players has gone way up with the new CBA, so the answer is quite possibly...
  38. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Paying Tony Snell roughly 12% of the cap when max contracts take up 25-35% is probably not a good idea unless you are already a title contender paying 3 max guys and you need to overpay to make sure you have a respectable bench/supporting cast.

    Of course that's what the Cavs basically did with JR Smith and Shumpert and to an extent Tristan Thompson.

    If the Bulls had kept Bulter, resigned Snell to that same contract and still given Felicio an $8/year extension, they would have roughly $10 to 11 million left in the cap, which as market value says, would net you another Snell type player.

    So the roster would be basically be:

    PG Grant/Payne
    SG Wade/Zipser/Valentine
    SF Butler/Snell
    PF Portis/1st round pick?
    C Lopez/Felicio

    This roster is another round of :poo: :poo: :poo: and the 7 or 8 seed.

    And signing Snell would prevent signing 2 max guys after 2018. I think 2 seasons of middling .500 ball lets you know if you should start a rebuild or not. That's what happened in Rose's first two seasons. The thing is everyone knew Rose was going to be a star. It probably happened quicker than anyone thought, him being MVP the next season (then fell apart quicker than anyone thought) but we knew it was coming.

    Butler is playing at the peak of his powers right now. He's not getting any drastically better. He'll stay around the same or decline after 2-3 seasons. I do think they could've built a better team around him but I also think a team built around Butler would've just been another version of the Toronto Raptors.
  39. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    In some alternate reality where the Bulls FO isn't so detested around the league, perhaps you can attract other stars to come to Chicago and play.

    Obviously they never should have signed Wade. Never should have made the Taj trade.

    I don't know, to be honest. I just know that the gulf between the FO of the Bulls and the Warriors is so far apart, that this organization can't even begin to compete without a complete overhaul, and that means new ownership.

    Hell, Gar/Pax don't even understand the new roster limit rules. Had no idea that you can have more than 15 players now.
  40. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    The return for Taj was very very very stupid and shitty but trading him was the right move. He's getting 2 years $28 million from Thibs. So even if you stand pat with everything the above team is just Taj and Doug instead of Payne. Taj doesn't address any of the team's weaknesses so it actually doesn't make the team any better. Then you are maxed out for the 17-18 season and after 2018 season you are right at the amount to offer someone the max. So you probably have to dump someone to sign someone to the max. I guess that's maybe a 4 or 5 seed team?
  41. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    I just don't get not acquiring draft picks. The Bulls don't seem to scout, because if they did, it would be obvious that a lot of these "like a lottery pick" guys are bums.
  42. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Yes, at the very least I would've tried to get a high second round or very low first for Taj. That might be hard on a rental role player that doesn't score much. I would say Taj for a 2nd round pick is fair. Instead the Bulls GAVE UP A SECOND ROUND PICK with Taj... to get Cameron Payne who is garbage.
  43. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    The guy the Nuggets took with the pick they got from the Bulls for, Nurkic was traded to Portland midseason and when given playing time averaged 15-10-2 PTS/REB/BLK

    :andruw:
  44. SABRSox
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    SABRSox Hollywood Mega-Hunk Bob Balaban Cupcake Mod

    Just watch that guy the Warriors paid the Bulls for turn out to be Sixth Man of the Year or some shit.
  45. FedEx
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    FedEx Delivers

    Also Gary Harris is pretty good too so the trade in hindsight was a monumental failure on all levels.

    June 26, 2014: Traded by the Denver Nuggets with Anthony Randolph to the Chicago Bulls for Gary Harris, Jusuf Nurkic and a 2015 2nd round draft pick (Sir'Dominic Pointer was later selected).

    Randolph was gone immediately. Gary Harris averaged close to 15 PPG in his age 22 season and Nurkic, blocked by Jokic in Denver, goes to Portland and immediately contributes huge. Nuggets also draft some bruh named Sir'Dominic.

    Bulls turn the McDermott asset, regardless of how valuable it was or wasn't after a few years into Cam Payne, Anthony Morrow and Joffrey Lauvergne. And even then it's not fair because they had to give them Taj and a 2nd-round pick. Anyway, Lauvergne just signed with the Spurs, Morrow was completely unplayable and Cam Payne if he wasn't still in his early 20s and wasn't apart of this trade would be cut tomorrow.

    Regardless of what you think about the Bulls future or the job GarPax has done you can't argue with the fact that these boobs have no fucking clue when it comes to asset management.
  46. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda


    Just one of the all time worst moves leading from the draft day trade to the Dougie/Taj/Payne trade.

    Also what is up with this dumbass franchise that they always release players before they even play a game for them? Randolph isn't anything special but he has some value as a rebounder and defensive presence- and is cheap.

    And last week when we were watching NJPW, we spent a good couple minutes making fun of how the Bulls had JR Smith from the Tyson Chandler deal only to trade him days later for 2 second round picks that ended up being JamesOn Curry and Aaron Gary.

    Also did the same thing with Jose Calderon. After getting him, pretty much gave him away for nothing.
  47. FedEx
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    FedEx Delivers

    Dikembe Mutombo too.
  48. sycked
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    sycked If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today.

  49. Unregistered
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    Unregistered The Facebook of Fucking Cupcake Mod

  50. y2chae
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    y2chae Panda

    Maybe Bell becomes something in the NBA. But it's the god damn summer league.

    Doug looked good in the summer league.
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